From hattieshalom at verizon.net Mon Aug 23 06:12:21 2010 From: hattieshalom at verizon.net (Hattie Nestel) Date: Mon Aug 23 06:12:32 2010 Subject: [Sage] Bill McKibben re: NUCLEAR POWER In-Reply-To: References: <14712927.468340271282499598693.JavaMail.xncore@z1003ef.ningops.com> <2124224396.337538.1282509392073.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Abbie, I couldn't agree with you more about Bill's position beingcounterintuitive but he has held steadfast to his position which years ago was pro nuclear power according to Mary Olson of NIRS and others that have followed his writings for years and now has receded to maintaining silence on the issue. I have had conversations with him personally and so have many others, particularly Vermonters. He has been quoted as saying he'd rather live by a nuclear plant than a coal plant and that is when I had my conversation and email exchanges with him. However, he has never refuted that. Before 350.org last year I went to the meeting about that in Amherst and asked the group to consider saying 350.org and nuclear power is not the answer. EVERYONE in that circle, about 12 people, total shook their heads and said no, Bill had said to keep it simple. Dade and I went to the Amherst Common the day of the photo-op with petitions against nuclear power, and most of the people we asked looked surprise at our position and said no to signing our petition. They simply couldn't understand out opposition to nuclear power. Bill's position is particularly disturbing since he lives in Vermont and is in residence at Middlebury College. He has testified to the legislature and toured the state as a respected environmentalist, and never once has come out against Vermont Yankee. If he did take a stance to shut down Vermont Yankee it would be very helpful. But more importantly, his taking a stance opposing federal subsidies for new nukes would be a huge help since he is constantly turing now with his new book and continues to get his op-eds published. I keep up with his essays which are frequent in publications like the Nation and other editorials and he consistently avoids saying anything about nuclear power. I would be quite happy to be mistaken about this, so if you find anything, please let me know. Thank you for looking into this further, Hattie ____ Hattie Nestel hattieshalom@verizon.net On Aug 22, 2010, at 5:47 PM, abbie jenks wrote: > Hi Hattie, > Thanks for your information and I'll have to do some investigation > about his position. I don't mean to refute you but it seems > counterintuitive given his stand on these things and I'd like to > check this out. > I'll get back to you, for sure! > Peace, Abbie > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Hattie Nestel > wrote: > Hi Abbie, > > I know Bill McKibben is a good writer and speaker but my thinking is > that there is a serious flaw in his approach. To my knowledge he > does not state that the solution to global warming must be renewable > sustainable energies and energy efficiency initiatives that are both > nuclear free and carbon free. He has many admirers and followers. > However, many that I have spoken to actually favor nuclear power as > a solution to global warming. I have never read, seen or heard him > refute that. > > Many people have had this conversation with him, but to my knowledge > and reading his commentaries, he does not disavow nuclear > technologies. I agree with you that he is an effective communicator, > but he is NOT communicating one of the most important aspects > regarding our future course of action to address the problems of > global warming. > > I welcome your repsonse, Hattie > ____ > Hattie Nestel > hattieshalom@verizon.net > > > > > On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:38 PM, abbie jenks wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: "Transition Massachusetts" > > >> To: gandhi0324@comcast.net >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:53:18 PM >> Subject: Bill McKibben talk in Lexington, Sunday, August 29th >> >> Transition Massachusetts >> Community Resilience, Self-Reliance, Renewable Energy & Cooperation >> A message to all members of Transition Massachusetts >> >> One week from today Bill McKibben returns to his home town of >> Lexington, MA to talk about his latest book Eaarth: Making a Life >> on a Tough New Planet. Details of the event are available here. >> Information about the book and excerpts are available here. >> >> >> This is an extraordinary chance to hear and interact with one of >> the world's most effective communicators about Climate Change. >> After Bill's talk, there will be time to network with others in >> attendance who are interested in or already working for Transition >> in their local communities. You may even meet people from your >> community who can help you start a Transition Initiative in your >> town or city. >> >> Please share this information with everyone you know who cares >> about the unprecedented challenges facing human civilization on >> this new Eaarth. >> >> Visit Transition Massachusetts at: http://transitionmassachusetts.ning.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network >> >> >> >> To control which emails you receive on Transition Massachusetts, >> click here >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Abbie Jenks, MSW >> Greenfield Community College >> 1 College Drive >> Greenfield, MA 01301 >> 413-775-1127 >> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once >> you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as >> political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either >> way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy >> _______________________________________________ >> SAGE mailing list >> SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop >> http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage > > > > > -- > Abbie Jenks, MSW > Greenfield Community College > 1 College Drive > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-775-1127 > "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once > you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as > political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either way, > you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/4fd3a955/attachment.html From lionoak at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 07:29:37 2010 From: lionoak at gmail.com (Tribal Scribal) Date: Mon Aug 23 07:29:42 2010 Subject: [Sage] Bill McKibben re: NUCLEAR POWER In-Reply-To: References: <14712927.468340271282499598693.JavaMail.xncore@z1003ef.ningops.com> <2124224396.337538.1282509392073.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: McKibben has been OK w/nukes for years. Sadly, many of his fans have allowed themselves to be led by the nose in this regard. It's my experience that critical thinking in terms of nukes and Big Wind is not a high card among a good number of his followers. The same holds true for his support of Cape Wind, the right project in the WRONG place. Having said that, bear in mind that Bill is totally focused on the oncoming climate crisis and is so concerned about getting to 350ppm that he is willing to make such concessions. It's all a matter of how much one is willing to trade during the end of the world as we know it. Are we willing to leave a radioactive legacy to future generations in the effort to cool the climate for future generations? As they say in Spain: it's a choice between a sword and the wall. d.o. On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Hattie Nestel wrote: > Hi Abbie, > > I couldn't agree with you more about Bill's position beingcounterintuitive > but he has held steadfast to his position which years ago was pro nuclear > power according to Mary Olson of NIRS and others that have followed his > writings for years and now has receded to maintaining silence on the issue. > I have had conversations with him personally and so have many others, > particularly Vermonters. He has been quoted as saying he'd rather live by a > nuclear plant than a coal plant and that is when I had my conversation and > email exchanges with him. However, he has never refuted that. > > Before 350.org last year I went to the meeting about that in Amherst and > asked the group to consider saying 350.org and nuclear power is not the > answer. EVERYONE in that circle, about 12 people, total shook their heads > and said no, Bill had said to keep it simple. > > Dade and I went to the Amherst Common the day of the photo-op with > petitions against nuclear power, and most of the people we asked looked > surprise at our position and said no to signing our petition. They simply > couldn't understand out opposition to nuclear power. > > Bill's position is particularly disturbing since he lives in Vermont and is > in residence at Middlebury College. He has testified to the legislature and > toured the state as a respected environmentalist, and never once has come > out against Vermont Yankee. If he did take a stance to shut down Vermont > Yankee it would be very helpful. But more importantly, his taking a stance > opposing federal subsidies for new nukes would be a huge help since he is > constantly turing now with his new book and continues to get his op-eds > published. > > I keep up with his essays which are frequent in publications like the > Nation and other editorials and he consistently avoids saying anything about > nuclear power. > > I would be quite happy to be mistaken about this, so if you find anything, > please let me know. > > Thank you for looking into this further, > > Hattie > > ____ > Hattie Nestel > hattieshalom@verizon.net > > > > > On Aug 22, 2010, at 5:47 PM, abbie jenks wrote: > > Hi Hattie, > Thanks for your information and I'll have to do some investigation about > his position. I don't mean to refute you but it seems counterintuitive given > his stand on these things and I'd like to check this out. > I'll get back to you, for sure! > Peace, Abbie > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Hattie Nestel wrote: > >> Hi Abbie, >> >> I know Bill McKibben is a good writer and speaker but my thinking is that >> there is a serious flaw in his approach. To my knowledge he does not state >> that the solution to global warming must be renewable sustainable energies >> and energy efficiency initiatives that are both nuclear free and carbon >> free. He has many admirers and followers. However, many that I have spoken >> to actually favor nuclear power as a solution to global warming. I have >> never read, seen or heard him refute that. >> >> Many people have had this conversation with him, but to my knowledge and >> reading his commentaries, he does not disavow nuclear technologies. I agree >> with you that he is an effective communicator, but he is NOT communicating >> one of the most important aspects regarding our future course of action to >> address the problems of global warming. >> >> I welcome your repsonse, Hattie >> ____ >> Hattie Nestel >> hattieshalom@verizon.net >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:38 PM, abbie jenks wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: "Transition Massachusetts" >> To: gandhi0324@comcast.net >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:53:18 PM >> Subject: Bill McKibben talk in Lexington, Sunday, August 29th >> >> Transition Massachusetts >> Community Resilience, Self-Reliance, Renewable Energy & Cooperation >> A message to all members of Transition Massachusetts >> >> One week from today Bill McKibben returns to his home town of Lexington, >> MA to talk about his latest book *Eaarth: Making a Life on a Tough New >> Planet*. Details of the event are available here. >> Information about the book and excerpts are available here >> . >> >> This is an extraordinary chance to hear and interact with one of the >> world's most effective communicators about Climate Change. After Bill's >> talk, there will be time to network with others in attendance who are >> interested in or already working for Transition in their local communities. >> You may even meet people from your community who can help you start a >> Transition Initiative in your town or city. >> >> Please share this information with everyone you know who cares about the >> unprecedented challenges facing human civilization on this new Eaarth. >> >> Visit Transition Massachusetts at: >> http://transitionmassachusetts.ning.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network >> >> >> To control which emails you receive on Transition Massachusetts, click >> here >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Abbie Jenks, MSW >> Greenfield Community College >> 1 College Drive >> Greenfield, MA 01301 >> 413-775-1127 >> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen >> it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as political an act as speaking >> out. There is no innocence. Either way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy >> _______________________________________________ >> SAGE mailing list >> SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop >> http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage >> >> >> > > > -- > Abbie Jenks, MSW > Greenfield Community College > 1 College Drive > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-775-1127 > "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen > it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as political an act as speaking > out. There is no innocence. Either way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy > > > > _______________________________________________ > SAGE mailing list > SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop > http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage > > -- *************************************** "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical world." - Thomas Jefferson more rebellion here: http://concertobi.blogspot.com/ *************************************** CAPE WIND: RIGHT PROJECT/WRONG PLACE!! Checkout The Enviro Show on WXOJ-LP, 103.3fm. Northampton, MA, Tuesdays, 6:30pm Also on WMCB, 107.9, Mondays at 9pm. http://envirosho.blogspot.com *************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/68f329d2/attachment-0001.htm From hattieshalom at verizon.net Mon Aug 23 09:09:40 2010 From: hattieshalom at verizon.net (Hattie Nestel) Date: Mon Aug 23 09:09:48 2010 Subject: [Sage] Re: Bill McKibben re: NUCLEAR POWER In-Reply-To: References: <14712927.468340271282499598693.JavaMail.xncore@z1003ef.ningops.com> <2124224396.337538.1282509392073.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <29A95A89-E36F-4477-A880-3FF9B401A0A8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1949983E-D658-4AEE-AB1E-BBAE8226D673@verizon.net> Hi D.O. I misunderstood you. Sorry. Thought you meant his position was O.K. Glad we agree. Hattie ____ Hattie Nestel hattieshalom@verizon.net On Aug 23, 2010, at 8:14 AM, Tribal Scribal wrote: > you best re-read my note. i never said he was OPPOSED to it. i said > he thinks they're OK > > > d.o. > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Hattie Nestel > wrote: > Hi D.O., > > I am glad to have your input but don't agree with your analyses. > > I don't know what you have ever seen or heard about Bill's position > on nuclear power that shows him opposed to it. I follow him VERY > closely and have never seen or heard him in print or in spoken word > oppose nuclear power. > > I do agree that Bill is very focused on the climate crises-although > I would call the climate crises present not oncoming. But, and it is > a significant BUT, and the crux of the issue, we do not have to > choose between a radioactive legacy from nuclear power and the end > of the world as we know it. IN FACT, choosing to put our resources, > both economic and scientific knowhow into nuclear power will impede > the real solutions that are here, operable and cost effective. > > 1. energy efficiency-needing both federal subsidies for "shovel > ready" projects and public education on basic tenants of living a > more energy efficient lifestyle and 2. wind and solar that are local- > non-corporate, public utility based getting the federal tax payer > subsidies that are now going to new nukes. > > President Bush was allocating in 2005 through the Energy Policy Act > of 2005 $18.5 billion for new nuclear power. Obama wants $54 billion > and has released $8.5 billion for two new nukes in Georgia and is > trying to push a $9 billion in loan guarantees through congress now. > In fact, the $9 billion were voted yes on by both Olver and Neal, > despite lobbying to both of the them by their constituents to vote > no. It is well acknowledged by the industry itself, that nuclear > power takes decades to build and that of all the start-ups, about > half are projected to fail. Among other nuclear power problems is > the massive use of water which takes in millions of gallons a day > and puts back into their sources untreated and 20 to 30 degrees > hotter water and the significant dependence on fossil fuels, > particularly coal in the mining and enrichment of uranium. Nuclear > power can NOT be seen as the answer to our climate crises. Of > course, we continue to subsidize research for how to dispose of the > nuclear waste to no avail. > > Just one other problem with nuclear power is its inextrciable link > to nuclear weapons, which I don't think any of us favor. > > The Institute for Energy and the Environment, IEER.org, has done > ground breaking work creating a roadmap for a Carbon Free and > Nuclear Free Future. This is what Bill McKibben and the rest of us > shoud be advocating and lobbying our elected officials to support. > > Thanks for engaging this issue. > > Hattie > > > > ____ > Hattie Nestel > hattieshalom@verizon.net > > > > > On Aug 23, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Tribal Scribal wrote: > >> McKibben has been OK w/nukes for years. Sadly, many of his fans >> have allowed themselves to be led by the nose in this regard. It's >> my experience that critical thinking in terms of nukes and Big Wind >> is not a high card among a good number of his followers. The same >> holds true for his support of Cape Wind, the right project in the >> WRONG place. Having said that, bear in mind that Bill is totally >> focused on the oncoming climate crisis and is so concerned about >> getting to 350ppm that he is willing to make such concessions. It's >> all a matter of how much one is willing to trade during the end of >> the world as we know it. Are we willing to leave a radioactive >> legacy to future generations in the effort to cool the climate for >> future generations? As they say in Spain: it's a choice between a >> sword and the wall. >> >> >> d.o. >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Hattie Nestel > > wrote: >> Hi Abbie, >> >> I couldn't agree with you more about Bill's position >> beingcounterintuitive but he has held steadfast to his position >> which years ago was pro nuclear power according to Mary Olson of >> NIRS and others that have followed his writings for years and now >> has receded to maintaining silence on the issue. I have had >> conversations with him personally and so have many others, >> particularly Vermonters. He has been quoted as saying he'd rather >> live by a nuclear plant than a coal plant and that is when I had my >> conversation and email exchanges with him. However, he has never >> refuted that. >> >> Before 350.org last year I went to the meeting about that in >> Amherst and asked the group to consider saying 350.org and nuclear >> power is not the answer. EVERYONE in that circle, about 12 people, >> total shook their heads and said no, Bill had said to keep it simple. >> >> Dade and I went to the Amherst Common the day of the photo-op with >> petitions against nuclear power, and most of the people we asked >> looked surprise at our position and said no to signing our >> petition. They simply couldn't understand out opposition to nuclear >> power. >> >> Bill's position is particularly disturbing since he lives in >> Vermont and is in residence at Middlebury College. He has testified >> to the legislature and toured the state as a respected >> environmentalist, and never once has come out against Vermont >> Yankee. If he did take a stance to shut down Vermont Yankee it >> would be very helpful. But more importantly, his taking a stance >> opposing federal subsidies for new nukes would be a huge help >> since he is constantly turing now with his new book and continues >> to get his op-eds published. >> >> I keep up with his essays which are frequent in publications like >> the Nation and other editorials and he consistently avoids saying >> anything about nuclear power. >> >> I would be quite happy to be mistaken about this, so if you find >> anything, please let me know. >> >> Thank you for looking into this further, >> >> Hattie >> >> ____ >> Hattie Nestel >> hattieshalom@verizon.net >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 22, 2010, at 5:47 PM, abbie jenks wrote: >> >>> Hi Hattie, >>> Thanks for your information and I'll have to do some investigation >>> about his position. I don't mean to refute you but it seems >>> counterintuitive given his stand on these things and I'd like to >>> check this out. >>> I'll get back to you, for sure! >>> Peace, Abbie >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Hattie Nestel >> > wrote: >>> Hi Abbie, >>> >>> I know Bill McKibben is a good writer and speaker but my thinking >>> is that there is a serious flaw in his approach. To my knowledge >>> he does not state that the solution to global warming must be >>> renewable sustainable energies and energy efficiency initiatives >>> that are both nuclear free and carbon free. He has many admirers >>> and followers. However, many that I have spoken to actually favor >>> nuclear power as a solution to global warming. I have never read, >>> seen or heard him refute that. >>> >>> Many people have had this conversation with him, but to my >>> knowledge and reading his commentaries, he does not disavow >>> nuclear technologies. I agree with you that he is an effective >>> communicator, but he is NOT communicating one of the most >>> important aspects regarding our future course of action to address >>> the problems of global warming. >>> >>> I welcome your repsonse, Hattie >>> ____ >>> Hattie Nestel >>> hattieshalom@verizon.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:38 PM, abbie jenks wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>>> From: "Transition Massachusetts" >>> > >>>> To: gandhi0324@comcast.net >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:53:18 PM >>>> Subject: Bill McKibben talk in Lexington, Sunday, August 29th >>>> >>>> Transition Massachusetts >>>> Community Resilience, Self-Reliance, Renewable Energy & Cooperation >>>> A message to all members of Transition Massachusetts >>>> >>>> One week from today Bill McKibben returns to his home town of >>>> Lexington, MA to talk about his latest book Eaarth: Making a Life >>>> on a Tough New Planet. Details of the event are available here. >>>> Information about the book and excerpts are available here. >>>> >>>> >>>> This is an extraordinary chance to hear and interact with one of >>>> the world's most effective communicators about Climate Change. >>>> After Bill's talk, there will be time to network with others in >>>> attendance who are interested in or already working for >>>> Transition in their local communities. You may even meet people >>>> from your community who can help you start a Transition >>>> Initiative in your town or city. >>>> >>>> Please share this information with everyone you know who cares >>>> about the unprecedented challenges facing human civilization on >>>> this new Eaarth. >>>> >>>> Visit Transition Massachusetts at: http://transitionmassachusetts.ning.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To control which emails you receive on Transition Massachusetts, >>>> click here >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Abbie Jenks, MSW >>>> Greenfield Community College >>>> 1 College Drive >>>> Greenfield, MA 01301 >>>> 413-775-1127 >>>> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once >>>> you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as >>>> political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either >>>> way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SAGE mailing list >>>> SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop >>>> http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Abbie Jenks, MSW >>> Greenfield Community College >>> 1 College Drive >>> Greenfield, MA 01301 >>> 413-775-1127 >>> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once >>> you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as >>> political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either >>> way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SAGE mailing list >> SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop >> http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *************************************** >> "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, >> and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical >> world." >> - Thomas >> Jefferson >> more rebellion here: >> http://concertobi.blogspot.com/ >> *************************************** >> CAPE WIND: RIGHT PROJECT/WRONG PLACE!! >> Checkout The Enviro Show on WXOJ-LP, 103.3fm. Northampton, MA, >> Tuesdays, 6:30pm >> Also on WMCB, 107.9, Mondays at 9pm. >> http://envirosho.blogspot.com >> *************************************** > > > > > -- > > *************************************** > "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and > as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical world." > - Thomas > Jefferson > more rebellion here: > http://concertobi.blogspot.com/ > *************************************** > CAPE WIND: RIGHT PROJECT/WRONG PLACE!! > Checkout The Enviro Show on WXOJ-LP, 103.3fm. Northampton, MA, > Tuesdays, 6:30pm > Also on WMCB, 107.9, Mondays at 9pm. > http://envirosho.blogspot.com > *************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/266a64e9/attachment-0001.html From lionoak at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 10:09:36 2010 From: lionoak at gmail.com (Tribal Scribal) Date: Mon Aug 23 10:09:42 2010 Subject: [Sage] Our Local Heritage: Shays' Rebellion Anniversary August 29 Message-ID: August 29, 1786 Northampton: Court of Common Pleas closed by an army of 1,500 Regulators. Dave Rovics' "Berkshire Hills" on the Rebellion. Listen here: http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=8112052&q=hi&newref=1 The most comprehensive book on Shays' Rebellion here: http://books.google.com/books?id=uOY8x2YfJEoC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=Shays%27+rebellion,+radical+perspective&source=bl&ots=Wd894qbUGs&sig=3lZJ2EfqaFBFl-nJunax2-jA9jw&hl=en&ei=KH5yTMf9G8L38Ab7ua2sDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Shays%27%20rebellion%2C%20radical%20perspective&f=false in solidarity, d.o. -- *************************************** "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical world." - Thomas Jefferson more rebellion here: http://concertobi.blogspot.com/ *************************************** CAPE WIND: RIGHT PROJECT/WRONG PLACE!! Checkout The Enviro Show on WXOJ-LP, 103.3fm. Northampton, MA, Tuesdays, 6:30pm Also on WMCB, 107.9, Mondays at 9pm. http://envirosho.blogspot.com *************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/4a7ae3b2/attachment.htm From wmjwj at wmjwj.org Mon Aug 23 10:32:40 2010 From: wmjwj at wmjwj.org (WMass Jobs with Justice) Date: Mon Aug 23 10:32:50 2010 Subject: [Sage] STONE SOUL FESTIVAL Labor Day Weekend Message-ID: <001801cb42d0$0acbcbb0$20636310$@org> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 430769 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/197ca090/attachment-0001.png From hattieshalom at verizon.net Mon Aug 23 10:46:07 2010 From: hattieshalom at verizon.net (Hattie Nestel) Date: Mon Aug 23 10:46:24 2010 Subject: [Sage] Re: Bill McKibben re: NUCLEAR POWER In-Reply-To: References: <14712927.468340271282499598693.JavaMail.xncore@z1003ef.ningops.com> <2124224396.337538.1282509392073.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Abbie, Please DO send it not only to your Transition Town group but any group you want. Most people are unaware of this...and every day is another day lost to renewables that are unfunded or underfunded because the money is going to fossil fuels and nuclear. People also are unaware of Obama's support for nuclear power. Bush advocated $18 billion in his 2005 Energy Policy Act but Obama is now advocating $54 billion. thanks for checking it out, Hattie ____ Hattie Nestel hattieshalom@verizon.net On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:58 AM, abbie jenks wrote: > Hi Hattie, > Well, I checked out a few things and you are right. He does not > categorically come out against nuclear power. I'm bummed. OK to send > this email of yours to my Transition Town group? I do think that the > 350.org idea is a good one but his position on energy should be > transparent with respect to nuclear. > Thanks again for your diligence and strength of conviction. > Peace, Abbie > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Hattie Nestel > wrote: > Hi Abbie, > > I couldn't agree with you more about Bill's position > beingcounterintuitive but he has held steadfast to his position > which years ago was pro nuclear power according to Mary Olson of > NIRS and others that have followed his writings for years and now > has receded to maintaining silence on the issue. I have had > conversations with him personally and so have many others, > particularly Vermonters. He has been quoted as saying he'd rather > live by a nuclear plant than a coal plant and that is when I had my > conversation and email exchanges with him. However, he has never > refuted that. > > Before 350.org last year I went to the meeting about that in Amherst > and asked the group to consider saying 350.org and nuclear power is > not the answer. EVERYONE in that circle, about 12 people, total > shook their heads and said no, Bill had said to keep it simple. > > Dade and I went to the Amherst Common the day of the photo-op with > petitions against nuclear power, and most of the people we asked > looked surprise at our position and said no to signing our petition. > They simply couldn't understand out opposition to nuclear power. > > Bill's position is particularly disturbing since he lives in Vermont > and is in residence at Middlebury College. He has testified to the > legislature and toured the state as a respected environmentalist, > and never once has come out against Vermont Yankee. If he did take a > stance to shut down Vermont Yankee it would be very helpful. But > more importantly, his taking a stance opposing federal subsidies > for new nukes would be a huge help since he is constantly turing now > with his new book and continues to get his op-eds published. > > I keep up with his essays which are frequent in publications like > the Nation and other editorials and he consistently avoids saying > anything about nuclear power. > > I would be quite happy to be mistaken about this, so if you find > anything, please let me know. > > Thank you for looking into this further, > > Hattie > > ____ > Hattie Nestel > hattieshalom@verizon.net > > > > > On Aug 22, 2010, at 5:47 PM, abbie jenks wrote: > >> Hi Hattie, >> Thanks for your information and I'll have to do some investigation >> about his position. I don't mean to refute you but it seems >> counterintuitive given his stand on these things and I'd like to >> check this out. >> I'll get back to you, for sure! >> Peace, Abbie >> >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Hattie Nestel > > wrote: >> Hi Abbie, >> >> I know Bill McKibben is a good writer and speaker but my thinking >> is that there is a serious flaw in his approach. To my knowledge he >> does not state that the solution to global warming must be >> renewable sustainable energies and energy efficiency initiatives >> that are both nuclear free and carbon free. He has many admirers >> and followers. However, many that I have spoken to actually favor >> nuclear power as a solution to global warming. I have never read, >> seen or heard him refute that. >> >> Many people have had this conversation with him, but to my >> knowledge and reading his commentaries, he does not disavow nuclear >> technologies. I agree with you that he is an effective >> communicator, but he is NOT communicating one of the most important >> aspects regarding our future course of action to address the >> problems of global warming. >> >> I welcome your repsonse, Hattie >> ____ >> Hattie Nestel >> hattieshalom@verizon.net >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:38 PM, abbie jenks wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>> From: "Transition Massachusetts" >> > >>> To: gandhi0324@comcast.net >>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:53:18 PM >>> Subject: Bill McKibben talk in Lexington, Sunday, August 29th >>> >>> Transition Massachusetts >>> Community Resilience, Self-Reliance, Renewable Energy & Cooperation >>> A message to all members of Transition Massachusetts >>> >>> One week from today Bill McKibben returns to his home town of >>> Lexington, MA to talk about his latest book Eaarth: Making a Life >>> on a Tough New Planet. Details of the event are available here. >>> Information about the book and excerpts are available here. >>> >>> >>> This is an extraordinary chance to hear and interact with one of >>> the world's most effective communicators about Climate Change. >>> After Bill's talk, there will be time to network with others in >>> attendance who are interested in or already working for Transition >>> in their local communities. You may even meet people from your >>> community who can help you start a Transition Initiative in your >>> town or city. >>> >>> Please share this information with everyone you know who cares >>> about the unprecedented challenges facing human civilization on >>> this new Eaarth. >>> >>> Visit Transition Massachusetts at: http://transitionmassachusetts.ning.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network >>> >>> >>> >>> To control which emails you receive on Transition Massachusetts, >>> click here >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Abbie Jenks, MSW >>> Greenfield Community College >>> 1 College Drive >>> Greenfield, MA 01301 >>> 413-775-1127 >>> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once >>> you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as >>> political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either >>> way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SAGE mailing list >>> SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop >>> http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Abbie Jenks, MSW >> Greenfield Community College >> 1 College Drive >> Greenfield, MA 01301 >> 413-775-1127 >> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once >> you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as >> political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either >> way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy > > > > > -- > Abbie Jenks, MSW > Greenfield Community College > 1 College Drive > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-775-1127 > "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once > you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as > political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either way, > you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/e727edc3/attachment.html From gandhi0324 at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:36:40 2010 From: gandhi0324 at gmail.com (abbie jenks) Date: Mon Aug 23 15:36:45 2010 Subject: [Sage] Re: [NFF] Bill McKibben re: NUCLEAR POWER In-Reply-To: References: <14712927.468340271282499598693.JavaMail.xncore@z1003ef.ningops.com> <2124224396.337538.1282509392073.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi all, There are many groups that are doing something for 350.org and I support that! Doug Renick sent an email saying that we should not discredit Bill's work while working to be heard about the dangers of nuclear power. It is deeply tied to the nuclear weapons industry in addition to being a real danger to life on earth. But I agree with Doug as we need to support each other, not discredit one another. I will support your efforts in this and personally talk with the folks I'll be working with to educate and discuss this issue. I can't get involved in a broader campaign right now and rely on you to take that on as you've done such great work on it so far. Thanks to all! Peace, Abbie On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Elizabeth L. Adams wrote: > Hattie and Abbie, > > Thank you for both for your thought-provoking submissions regarding > concerns about Bill McKibben's lack of mentioning the "false (and fatal) > solution" of nuclear power! I am in agreement that we need to respond! > > Perhaps one thing we could do is propose a meeting with the local 350.orggroup (in Amherst?) (Is that the group you were referring to, Hattie? Is > there another group /are there groups that we might bring into the > discussion? > > Overall, from the perspective as a regional and national organizer, I > believe that we need to work locally on bridging the gaps that separate us. > *(IF* we want and expect the national movement to galvanize around issues > of importance such as the dismantling of the nuclear system!) We want the > movement to grow, and we need to bring people together, not dismiss groups > or individuals because they do not see or do everything we want. > > Is it education that people need to convince them or what? Let's ask them! > Let's ask some questions first with a facilitator and work toward progress > in bridging gaps at such a meeting. How do others feel about these thoughts? > > Beth Adams > Leverett, Nuclear-free Future Coalition of Western MA > > > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Hattie Nestel wrote: > >> Hi Abbie, >> >> I couldn't agree with you more about Bill's position >> beingcounterintuitive but he has held steadfast to his position which years >> ago was pro nuclear power according to Mary Olson of NIRS and others that >> have followed his writings for years and now has receded to maintaining >> silence on the issue. I have had conversations with him personally and so >> have many others, particularly Vermonters. He has been quoted as saying he'd >> rather live by a nuclear plant than a coal plant and that is when I had my >> conversation and email exchanges with him. However, he has never refuted >> that. >> >> Before 350.org last year I went to the meeting about that in Amherst and >> asked the group to consider saying 350.org and nuclear power is not the >> answer. EVERYONE in that circle, about 12 people, total shook their heads >> and said no, Bill had said to keep it simple. >> >> Dade and I went to the Amherst Common the day of the photo-op with >> petitions against nuclear power, and most of the people we asked looked >> surprise at our position and said no to signing our petition. They simply >> couldn't understand out opposition to nuclear power. >> >> Bill's position is particularly disturbing since he lives in Vermont and >> is in residence at Middlebury College. He has testified to the legislature >> and toured the state as a respected environmentalist, and never once has >> come out against Vermont Yankee. If he did take a stance to shut down >> Vermont Yankee it would be very helpful. But more importantly, his taking a >> stance opposing federal subsidies for new nukes would be a huge help since >> he is constantly turing now with his new book and continues to get his >> op-eds published. >> >> I keep up with his essays which are frequent in publications like the >> Nation and other editorials and he consistently avoids saying anything about >> nuclear power. >> >> I would be quite happy to be mistaken about this, so if you find anything, >> please let me know. >> >> Thank you for looking into this further, >> >> Hattie >> >> ____ >> Hattie Nestel >> hattieshalom@verizon.net >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 22, 2010, at 5:47 PM, abbie jenks wrote: >> >> Hi Hattie, >> Thanks for your information and I'll have to do some investigation about >> his position. I don't mean to refute you but it seems counterintuitive given >> his stand on these things and I'd like to check this out. >> I'll get back to you, for sure! >> Peace, Abbie >> >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Hattie Nestel wrote: >> >>> Hi Abbie, >>> >>> I know Bill McKibben is a good writer and speaker but my thinking is that >>> there is a serious flaw in his approach. To my knowledge he does not state >>> that the solution to global warming must be renewable sustainable energies >>> and energy efficiency initiatives that are both nuclear free and carbon >>> free. He has many admirers and followers. However, many that I have spoken >>> to actually favor nuclear power as a solution to global warming. I have >>> never read, seen or heard him refute that. >>> >>> Many people have had this conversation with him, but to my knowledge and >>> reading his commentaries, he does not disavow nuclear technologies. I agree >>> with you that he is an effective communicator, but he is NOT communicating >>> one of the most important aspects regarding our future course of action to >>> address the problems of global warming. >>> >>> I welcome your repsonse, Hattie >>> ____ >>> Hattie Nestel >>> hattieshalom@verizon.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:38 PM, abbie jenks wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>> From: "Transition Massachusetts" >>> To: gandhi0324@comcast.net >>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:53:18 PM >>> Subject: Bill McKibben talk in Lexington, Sunday, August 29th >>> >>> Transition Massachusetts >>> Community Resilience, Self-Reliance, Renewable Energy & Cooperation >>> A message to all members of Transition Massachusetts >>> >>> One week from today Bill McKibben returns to his home town of Lexington, >>> MA to talk about his latest book *Eaarth: Making a Life on a Tough New >>> Planet*. Details of the event are available here. >>> Information about the book and excerpts are available here >>> . >>> >>> This is an extraordinary chance to hear and interact with one of the >>> world's most effective communicators about Climate Change. After Bill's >>> talk, there will be time to network with others in attendance who are >>> interested in or already working for Transition in their local communities. >>> You may even meet people from your community who can help you start a >>> Transition Initiative in your town or city. >>> >>> Please share this information with everyone you know who cares about the >>> unprecedented challenges facing human civilization on this new Eaarth. >>> >>> Visit Transition Massachusetts at: >>> http://transitionmassachusetts.ning.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network >>> >>> >>> To control which emails you receive on Transition Massachusetts, click >>> here >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Abbie Jenks, MSW >>> Greenfield Community College >>> 1 College Drive >>> Greenfield, MA 01301 >>> 413-775-1127 >>> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've >>> seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as political an act as >>> speaking out. There is no innocence. Either way, you're accountable." >>> --Arundhati Roy >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SAGE mailing list >>> SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop >>> http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Abbie Jenks, MSW >> Greenfield Community College >> 1 College Drive >> Greenfield, MA 01301 >> 413-775-1127 >> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen >> it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as political an act as speaking >> out. There is no innocence. Either way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NFF mailing list >> NFF@lists.afscwm.org >> http://lists.afscwm.org/listinfo.cgi/nff-afscwm.org >> >> > > > -- > "If the people lead, the leaders will follow." Martin Sheen > -- Abbie Jenks, MSW Greenfield Community College 1 College Drive Greenfield, MA 01301 413-775-1127 "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as political an act as speaking out. There is no innocence. Either way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/50cde437/attachment.html From eadams333 at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:29:48 2010 From: eadams333 at gmail.com (Elizabeth L. Adams) Date: Mon Aug 23 21:43:14 2010 Subject: [Sage] Re: [NFF] Bill McKibben re: NUCLEAR POWER In-Reply-To: References: <14712927.468340271282499598693.JavaMail.xncore@z1003ef.ningops.com> <2124224396.337538.1282509392073.JavaMail.root@sz0052a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hattie and Abbie, Thank you for both for your thought-provoking submissions regarding concerns about Bill McKibben's lack of mentioning the "false (and fatal) solution" of nuclear power! I am in agreement that we need to respond! Perhaps one thing we could do is propose a meeting with the local 350.orggroup (in Amherst?) (Is that the group you were referring to, Hattie? Is there another group /are there groups that we might bring into the discussion? Overall, from the perspective as a regional and national organizer, I believe that we need to work locally on bridging the gaps that separate us. *(IF* we want and expect the national movement to galvanize around issues of importance such as the dismantling of the nuclear system!) We want the movement to grow, and we need to bring people together, not dismiss groups or individuals because they do not see or do everything we want. Is it education that people need to convince them or what? Let's ask them! Let's ask some questions first with a facilitator and work toward progress in bridging gaps at such a meeting. How do others feel about these thoughts? Beth Adams Leverett, Nuclear-free Future Coalition of Western MA On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Hattie Nestel wrote: > Hi Abbie, > > I couldn't agree with you more about Bill's position beingcounterintuitive > but he has held steadfast to his position which years ago was pro nuclear > power according to Mary Olson of NIRS and others that have followed his > writings for years and now has receded to maintaining silence on the issue. > I have had conversations with him personally and so have many others, > particularly Vermonters. He has been quoted as saying he'd rather live by a > nuclear plant than a coal plant and that is when I had my conversation and > email exchanges with him. However, he has never refuted that. > > Before 350.org last year I went to the meeting about that in Amherst and > asked the group to consider saying 350.org and nuclear power is not the > answer. EVERYONE in that circle, about 12 people, total shook their heads > and said no, Bill had said to keep it simple. > > Dade and I went to the Amherst Common the day of the photo-op with > petitions against nuclear power, and most of the people we asked looked > surprise at our position and said no to signing our petition. They simply > couldn't understand out opposition to nuclear power. > > Bill's position is particularly disturbing since he lives in Vermont and is > in residence at Middlebury College. He has testified to the legislature and > toured the state as a respected environmentalist, and never once has come > out against Vermont Yankee. If he did take a stance to shut down Vermont > Yankee it would be very helpful. But more importantly, his taking a stance > opposing federal subsidies for new nukes would be a huge help since he is > constantly turing now with his new book and continues to get his op-eds > published. > > I keep up with his essays which are frequent in publications like the > Nation and other editorials and he consistently avoids saying anything about > nuclear power. > > I would be quite happy to be mistaken about this, so if you find anything, > please let me know. > > Thank you for looking into this further, > > Hattie > > ____ > Hattie Nestel > hattieshalom@verizon.net > > > > > On Aug 22, 2010, at 5:47 PM, abbie jenks wrote: > > Hi Hattie, > Thanks for your information and I'll have to do some investigation about > his position. I don't mean to refute you but it seems counterintuitive given > his stand on these things and I'd like to check this out. > I'll get back to you, for sure! > Peace, Abbie > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Hattie Nestel wrote: > >> Hi Abbie, >> >> I know Bill McKibben is a good writer and speaker but my thinking is that >> there is a serious flaw in his approach. To my knowledge he does not state >> that the solution to global warming must be renewable sustainable energies >> and energy efficiency initiatives that are both nuclear free and carbon >> free. He has many admirers and followers. However, many that I have spoken >> to actually favor nuclear power as a solution to global warming. I have >> never read, seen or heard him refute that. >> >> Many people have had this conversation with him, but to my knowledge and >> reading his commentaries, he does not disavow nuclear technologies. I agree >> with you that he is an effective communicator, but he is NOT communicating >> one of the most important aspects regarding our future course of action to >> address the problems of global warming. >> >> I welcome your repsonse, Hattie >> ____ >> Hattie Nestel >> hattieshalom@verizon.net >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:38 PM, abbie jenks wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: "Transition Massachusetts" >> To: gandhi0324@comcast.net >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:53:18 PM >> Subject: Bill McKibben talk in Lexington, Sunday, August 29th >> >> Transition Massachusetts >> Community Resilience, Self-Reliance, Renewable Energy & Cooperation >> A message to all members of Transition Massachusetts >> >> One week from today Bill McKibben returns to his home town of Lexington, >> MA to talk about his latest book *Eaarth: Making a Life on a Tough New >> Planet*. Details of the event are available here. >> Information about the book and excerpts are available here >> . >> >> This is an extraordinary chance to hear and interact with one of the >> world's most effective communicators about Climate Change. After Bill's >> talk, there will be time to network with others in attendance who are >> interested in or already working for Transition in their local communities. >> You may even meet people from your community who can help you start a >> Transition Initiative in your town or city. >> >> Please share this information with everyone you know who cares about the >> unprecedented challenges facing human civilization on this new Eaarth. >> >> Visit Transition Massachusetts at: >> http://transitionmassachusetts.ning.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network >> >> >> To control which emails you receive on Transition Massachusetts, click >> here >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Abbie Jenks, MSW >> Greenfield Community College >> 1 College Drive >> Greenfield, MA 01301 >> 413-775-1127 >> "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen >> it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as political an act as speaking >> out. There is no innocence. Either way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy >> _______________________________________________ >> SAGE mailing list >> SAGE@lists.gaiahost.coop >> http://lists.gaiahost.coop/mailman/listinfo/sage >> >> >> > > > -- > Abbie Jenks, MSW > Greenfield Community College > 1 College Drive > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-775-1127 > "The trouble is, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen > it, keeping quiet and saying nothing becomes as political an act as speaking > out. There is no innocence. Either way, you're accountable." --Arundhati Roy > > > > _______________________________________________ > NFF mailing list > NFF@lists.afscwm.org > http://lists.afscwm.org/listinfo.cgi/nff-afscwm.org > > -- "If the people lead, the leaders will follow." Martin Sheen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gaiahost.coop/pipermail/sage/attachments/20100823/edd629ca/attachment-0001.htm